I don't know why people in this town think that the opposition to the MCDC automatically equates being a supporter of illegal immigration. I beleive that people should enter this country the right way, and Americans have a right to demand that we know who comes in and what they are bringing. I also beleive the MCDC is an ineffective polarizing force in America, and if you truly are against illegal immigration and want a viable solution found and our leaders to actually act on it, you should not support the MCDC either. I've been reading all the blogs on KC Star and elsewhere, and people should also stop calling this blackmail. Leveraging economic power to do harm to your political opponents is not blackmail, it's par for the course in today's politics, grow up people. The financial company I work for is currently active in what's called divesting, which is pulling out funds from companies, however profitable they may be, because of their involvement in the Sudanese genocide. Would you also call this blackmail? Nope, it's using dollars to send a message and get a point across, and no message resonates clearer than dollar bills in our great country. Is the message of NLCR that they support illegal immigration? Hardly. Their message is they oppose a group that would have every brown person in every city dragged out into the streets and checked for papers, because this is basically how the MCDC would "enforce immigration laws" if they could. I don't think they are nessecarily a racist organiztion per se, but they are a lighting rod for racists, and thats says a lot about how they go about gaining support. If anybody comes out with a good solution to our "illegal immigration problem" then let me know, till then tell MCDC to shut up and let the smart people deal with this one.

Chris says:

Actually people, Jesse is the one who needs to shut up and smarten up. He starts with the proposition that "MCDC is an ineffective polarizing force in America." I've got a huge news flash for Jesse. The formulation of MCDC and its launch April 1, 2005 is EXACTLY what propelled the illegal immigration issue to the forefront of America's consciousness. Chris Simcox and Jim Gilchrist will go down in history as the initial catalysts that spotlighted our broken immigration system and policies.
Then quite predictably, Jesse mischaracterizes MCDC by describing them as: "a group that would have every brown person in every city dragged out into the street and checked for papers, because this is basically how the MCDC would "enforce immigration laws" if they could." Nothing could be further from the truth. Countless brown skinned members of MCDC laugh hysterically when they hear dim-witted statements like this. I do to. Immediately after making that statement he adds that he doesn't necessarily think MCDC are racists!! Oh Lord, this is one confused individual!
Then: "lightning rod for racists ....how they go about gaining support." Oh, please, Jesse, do a little homework before you go shooting your mouth off.

Incidentally, MCDC believes that people should enter this country the right way, and Americans have a right to demand that we know who comes in and what they are bringing. (Your exact beliefs Jesse) The only difference is (and I really am only presuming this - you could correct me with facts), MCDC gets up off the couch and does something about it.

J. Chris King

Oh, and I was impressed with Mary Sanchez's column today also. I applauded her for a legitimate critique of MCDC based on information available from the news media and Internet. I, however, choose to only write about first hand, verifiable information so I invited her to the border to get a first hand look at MCDC from the inside and see who they REALY ARE AND WHAT REALLY MOTIVATES them.

The name calling your local news paper reporter, Lewis W. Diuguid uses makes me realize that more than Illegal immigrants have moved east from California; we have exported our bias journalism as well. On behalf of the few conservatives left in this State, I apologize.

I am a former member of the Minuteman Project's Board of Directors and currently serve as the California State coordinator for the Minuteman PAC, the political action end of the Minuteman Civil Defense Corps (MCDC). I am Jewish, MCDC is run by Al Garza (full blooded Hispanic), I was recruited by Ted Hayes (American-African) and I have worked as Chief of Staff for Minuteman Tony Dolz (born in Cuba). In fact, more than half of the other anti-illegal immigration groups I have worked with are headed by a person of color. I will admit that it's hard to find a Democrat in the bunch, but we do have some.

What you will not find in the main stream Minuteman Movement is Klan members, Nazi's, Black Muslims, ACLU members or any other hate group. We not only won't tolerate these bigots, we can't allow ourselves to be associated with racists groups or we would loose popular support. Currently, our poll numbers are better than the President and Congress combined.

The image of Minutemen being paramilitary goons with assault rifles doesn’t pass the smell test when you consider that over two thirds of our members are retired people, over the age of 65. Imagine your Grandma and her bridge club, sitting in lawn chairs with a spotting scope, a two way radio and a cell phone; these are the “vigilantes” the President got his knickers in a twist about. To this date, there have been no incidents of a minuteman shooting anyone at the border, though we are often fired upon. However, we have saved over four hundred people that were left to die by their coyote without food or water.

This is, of course, YOUR FIGHT. You Missourians must make your own decision whether or not you want your State to end up looking like California. I just wanted you to get some facts straight before you continue the debate.

Chris King, you couldn't be more wrong. I didn't have to go too far at the Minutman HQ website to find proof of my stance. Want to know how the Minutemen feel about this whole situation in our town? Here's how they put it,
"Cesar Chavez wannabes fret more about a law-abiding grandma than a gang of machete-wielding illegals."
Oh no, that's not polarizing at all, according to you and your brand of "logic".
This brand of rhetoric is all over the website, WAKE UP CHRIS KING!!!! I know all about the MCDC, as well as the Minutmen Project, Outraged Patriots, all the other whiners. I do my homework, I don't just pop off at the mouth without doing a bit of research, as you assert. Just because there are brown people who swallow their brand of garbage doens't mean I have to, or that I am a dimwit. How would you deport 12 to 13 million undocumented people? How would you find them? Better question, how would you find them without constantly harrassing U.S. citizens like me? What good is a fence going to do? I think you need to read a book too, Chris King. I found a little mission statement on another organization you might like to join. They consider themselves "patriots" too:

First: To protect the weak, the innocent, and the defenseless from the indignities, wrongs and outrages of the lawless, the violent and the brutal; to relieve the injured and oppressed; to succor the suffering and unfortunate

Second: To protect and defend the Constitution of the United States ...

Third: To aid and assist in the execution of all constitutional laws, and to protect the people from unlawful seizure, and from trial except by their peers in conformity with the laws of the land.

Sounds good, right? With a mission statement like that, how could you oppose them? If you did oppose them, you much hate the Constitution of the United States! You must be un-American! Yes, Chris King, you would love to join this organization, wouldn't you? Well guess what, this is the mission statement of the KKK. Enjoy your membership. (side note, the KKK mission statement and the MCDC mission statement don't sound different, do they? Just saying)

Sorry Chris, your endles amount of illogic has been eating at my brain, and I need to say one more thing before I leave for the day. Chris King, I am apparently not the only person to hold this opinion about the MCDC, the Southern Poverty Law Center lists them as a "nativist extremist" group, which in their own words, "meaning that they target individual immigrants rather than immigration policies". Look it up yourself, here's the link

http://www.splcenter.org/intel/intelreport/article.jsp?sid=413

Whenever they are discussed in the media it seems, words like vigilante, millitia, millitant, xenophobic, etc keep popping up alongside them. (Usually if just about EVERYBODY is saying the same thing, it must hold a little bit of truth, you think?)Could you also look up what one of the original founders of the MCDC, Laine Lawless, is doing now? I'll give you a hint, google the words "Border Guardians" and you'll find her. Since you are so knowledgeable about the MCDC, could you enlighten anyone reading this article where Mr. Simcox's "Isreali Style" sophisticated fence system is that he promised? No one's seen it, and a lot of people are wondering. I'll do you a favor, I'll give you the contact info myself. The director of the Heart of America Chapter of the MCDC is Ed Hayes, his phone number is 913-620-0771, and his e-mail address is

mcdcofkansas@sbcglobal.net

Maybe he can tell you where this fence is. One last thing too, tell Al Garza that if the deportation supporters get the final word in this debate that I hope he gets mistaken for a Guatamalen while out cutting his grass without his wallet, and then gets deported to the middle of Escuintla. For all these brown skinned MCDC members who supposedly "laugh hysterically" at my opinion, tell them they remind me of the Cubans who were so hell bent on removing Fulgencio Batista from power in 1959 during the Cuban Revolution. They were so sure that Fidel Castro would be better for the country. We all know how that turned out. I assume you brought them up to discredit my stance, since by your logic the MCDC can't be a lightning pole for racists if brown people are members too right? Well I think it works against you. These people obviously suffer from Stockholm Syndrome, just my humble opinion. My point in this analogy is we shouldn't just go after a problem without a logical solution. Just ask the Cubans. Enjoy your day, J. Christopher King. I hope it includes reading a book or two, but please nothing by Frosty Wooldridge or Lou Dobbs, please! Reading stuff like this has gotten you into the lowly state of intelligence you currently are in.

My Dear Anonymous,
Bringing up the:
“Ceasar Chavez wannabes…..”
quote, clearly demonstrates your lack of understanding of this issue. I suggest you read the whole article. And maybe then you’ll see how ridiculous your cherry picking sentences has made you look.
Typically, you are unable to acknowledge that there is a difference between MMP, Outraged Patriots and other whiners. I deal with it all the time. I am only defending the MCDC. That is who I am familiar with, not the others. If you are unable to focus on that, go rant to somebody else that deals with youngsters who have short attention spans. I won’t waste the time with you.
By the way, I didn’t call you a dimwit, I said you made a dim-witted statement. There is a difference. But now that you’ve said that, it begs the question: Are you anonymous…..or are you Jesse?
You asked me:
How would you deport 12 to 13 million undocumented people? How would you find them? Better question, how would you find them without constantly harrassing U.S. citizens like me?
You must be really new at this my friend. MCDC does not have any desire to hassle US citizens. As a matter of fact, just a few months ago we celebrated the naturalization of several new citizens in Tucson, Arizona. We encourage legal immigration, wholeheartedly.
Then you asked me:
What good is a fence going to do?
Well, the fence at San Diego reduced illegal immigration by 90%.
Now you want to talk about the KKK. Do you see how you just can’t stay focused on what’s real here? Trying to make an association with the KKK is simply childish. Telling me to join? I mean, really. I have a feeling that you are quite young. May I ask how old you are? Or is that insulting to you?
Let me just mention this, Terry Goddard is a “liberal, democratic Attorney General” for the State of Arizona. He freaked out in 2005 when we launched the Minuteman Project in Arizona. But then he noticed something on our website: “we encouraged law enforcement to infiltrate our ranks, anonymously, to monitor us while we conducted our first month stand at the border.” Now, do you know of any other activist group that has made that offer? Think long and hard about that. One year later I was at a conference with Mr. Goddard and he told me to my face that MCDC was a role model for peaceful activism and he had the utmost respect for us. He also told me that it was inappropriate to refer to us as vigilantes. He shook my hand.
Oh, Jesse, the Southern Poverty Law Center??? I’m sorry. I am laughing again. Maybe you should spend some time on THEIR website and form some conclusions.
Ah yes, Laine Lawless. Well, well. Jesse, it’s true that Laine worked at the Tombstone Tumbleweed prior to the MMP launch in 2005. She wrote some articles for the paper. Why as a matter of fact, I walked Jim Gilchrist over to her at the State Capitol in Phoenix later that year. I also filmed her at the Mexican Consulate when she burned the flag there. But she was not a founder and there is a CLEAR AND IRREFUTABLE REASON why she IS NOT A MEMBER OF THE MCDC. Can you extrapolate for yourself? Or do I need to speak slowly and lay it out for you? She formed Border Guardians because MCDC didn’t approve of her aggressive style. I don’t care how many biased and slanted articles you can find on the Internet. We do not endorse her. SHE IS NOT A MINUTEMAN. That’s the Bottom-line, no matter how much you whine or cry about it.
Oh, here’s another little tidbit for you. All those sources, you like to quote from, claim George Bush called the Minutemen vigilantes. (it’s aaalll over the internet so it must be true, hey Jesse?) well? Got some news for you. junior, George Bush made that statement at Baylor University in Waco, Texas on March 23, 2005. Now I want you to reeeeely focus for a minute here…….the Minuteman Project wasn’t in existence yet. They didn’t start until April. Bush wasn’t talking about them. I know. I was there. That lie has been repeated so many times on the Internet that even some Minutemen believe it! Do you see how I keep referring to “first hand” information, Jesse? It just takes you so much further down that road called integrity.
Thanks for Ed’s number, but, I already have it.
Funny you mentioned Al Garza. You must be psychic. Actually, he was one of them laughing at your statement. I did happen to talk to him today (I admit it - that’s how he knew about you, sorry man.)
And, I must correct you. I didn’t bring up that Cuban, Batista, Castro stuff. How is it that you think I did? Are you just making that up? Or maybe you’re just confused…which has been my point from the start. And you carelessly made my other point. No thanks, I’ll leave the book reading to you, you see, like I said, we get UP OFF THE COUCH and do something about problems. You stay right there and keep reading. It suits you.
J. Christopher King
I will however, make the same offer to you as I did to M. Sanchez. Come join me on the border and get an “honest” look at what we’re doing and what we’re dealing with. Considering your passion and concern, I wouldn’t think you would pass it up? Would you?

I have to start by addressing your "get off the couch" statement. Getting off the couch and doing something STUPID is better than staying on the couch according to you. NEWS FLASH Chris, it isn't. Plus that cute little "reeeely" word you threw in there is interesting. It is supposed to be a joke about a Mexican accent right? Well, I speak four languages and I don't have an accent in any of them, you fucking hillbilly you, how are you supposed to convince me you and you creepy crew aren't racists when you say stuff like that? WAKE UP CHRIS KING!!!!!! You and your cronies need to seriously shift the direction of your organization unless you like wasting time and money. J. Christopher King, one of us is right, one of us is wrong, and time will tell. Thanks for telling me what George Bush said, very informative stuff there. Funny you mention that, seeing as I NEVER said anything about anything Bush said. I never said they were vigilantes, why did you bring that word up. You sound defensive. And very confused. I ignore what Bush said, and I wasn't referring to that. So touchy your Minutemen are. Another thing, I said to tell Al Garza he reminds me of the Cubans during the Batista removal, I never said ANYTHING about you saying it. Confusion sets in once again for the great J. Christopher King. Why can't you recognize that letters joined together form words, and words formed together make thoughts, and you need to read slowly and carefully for your little brain to realize what smart people are talking about, and that is that immigration reform IS important and the MCDC has NO logical answers, just a bunch of burning desire. Nice thought, but a solid plan takes more than desire to form, it takes brains and a little foresight, something the MCDC offers none of. I have no desire to go the border and get shot at by drug cartels in a fruitless and useless "border watch" campaign. I have stated over and over to you and your cronies that I am not for illegal immigration, I recognize it as wrong and a problem that needs to be fixed. I disagree strongly with how the MCDC would fix it, that's all. That's another reason why you and your cronies are so polarizing, if someone doesn't agree with the "solutions" you people offer then they automatically must be for illegal immigration and against America. Very convenient to invent only two little frames of references that people must choose from, but sorry this issue is not as black and white as you'd like to think. There's a little sliver of black (you guys) and little sliver of white (La Raza Unida, supporters of Atzlan, pro amnesty crowd) and a WHOLE lot of gray in the middle (me and about 250 million other Americans) Once you and your stooges stop looking at this issue in such a myopic manner then we'll all be better off. And maybe you'll get more applications to join than just Neo Natzis and senior citizens who still cling to the notion of the good ole days of Jim Crow and segregation. No more use arguing, J. Christopher King, you are sure of your stance and I am sure of mine, and we aren't going to convince each other of anything. You have people of all color who agree with you, I have people of all color who agree with me, and the truth and the answer probably lies somewhere between. And don't forget to tell the brown MCDC members that they have Stockholm Syndrome. By the way, I am 27, and I've traveled far and wide since I'm from an international family, I have a B.S. in finance and a MBA, and I am thinking about quitting my job as a stockbroker to go into law enforcement so I can move to your town and follow you around and ticket you everytime you roll through a stop sign, or fail to us a turn signal, or park too far from the curb, and call you an illegal for knowingly and willfully breaking the law, you machete weilding America hating illegal you. Thanks

Oh, Jesse,
Stop, stop, your killin’ me!! I’m sorry, but debating with you is like dealing with my teenager. You don’t really respond to my points, you uncontrollably respond to what “you think and feel.” This is the main disconnect that people of our persuasion have. If you look back on your post, the majority of what bothers you is not what I said, but the exaggerations and embellishments of your out of control imagination.
I used the word “reeeely” to accentuate your inability to focus. That’s what I said, that’s what I meant and that’s what you can’t accept. And your bringing it up incorrectly only confirmed what I was saying. There would be many, many other ways I could poke fun at a Mexican accent if I chose to. In this dialogue that would be inappropriate.

I’m afraid that time has told the obvious already, Jesse. Since the Minuteman Project of 2005, Illegal Immigration was spring boarded to the front page. The doors are slowly closing. Wake up Jesse. There’s no refuting that.

I didn’t say that you brought up Bush, my friend. I was using that example to demonstrate how mis-reporting can snowball all over the Internet until it becomes accepted as the truth. It is one of the classic “fallacies of logic.’ Why are you having such a hard time understanding all of this?

Actually Jesse, you brought up the word vigilante first, not me.

The MCDC goal has always remained the same. “ To do the job that our Federal Government has refused to do.” Simcox has always maintained: “If you enforce our current immigration laws, we will all go home.”

Oh Jesse, my whole world is simply shades of gray. Period. Let me give you some examples:

My housemaid is an illegal alien.
I guarantee I have more Valdez’s in my family than you do.
A few months ago I found an illegal border crosser stranded without food and water. I saved his life.
I provided forensic evidence to the Maricopa Superior Court to aid an Oaxacan Indian who was being abused by a US citizen. I will testify on her behalf next month.
I am a Minuteman and I do take shifts at the border.

Its all shades of gray my friend.

Oh yeah, one more thing Jesse, if you really do apply for a position in Law Enforcement, there’s a little box that asks you why you want to be a cop? Now, trust me on this one…. don’t give them the same reason you told me:

“I am thinking about quitting my job as a stockbroker to go into law enforcement so I can move to your town and follow you around and ticket you everytime you roll through a stop sign, or fail to us a turn signal, or park too far from the curb, and call you an illegal for knowingly and willfully breaking the law, you machete weilding America hating illegal you.”

Just a friendly suggestion, my friend.

J. Christopher King

Uh, what? Did I not directly respond to your statements about G. Bush, Al Garza, getting off the couch, etc. I think it was a direct response to your little kangaroo court cross examination my friend. Okay, J. Christopher King, I love your use of unidentified sources, and "personal accounts" with no way of knowing if they are true or not, and then accuse me of being like your teenager, kind of like the pot calling the kettle black I'd say, I just got out of school and I'm very familiar with the Oxford style of debate my friend, in fact I excelled at it. I post links to what I say to back up my statements, you have posted none. I respond to your baseless and unproven "rebuttals" with pure and simple logic because you seem like a simple person, and you still cannot find the connection. Suggestion, take my responses to your father and have him explain it to you in a way you can understand, okay, because I don't know which learning disability you have so I cannot help you like he could. A teenager rarely uses historical contexts and actually proof that you can click on and find out for yourself. WAKE UP J. Christopher King, you're fighting a losing fight because you go at it the wrong way. Like I said before, time will tell, and there's no use in arguing about it, beleive what you want, and I will beleive what I want, and we'll see what happens. Whatever does I'm ready.

Well, Jesse, I did post a response today, however it has not shown up on the thread. I'm waiting for an explanation from the webmaster now.
J Christopher King

Jesse,
In a good argument, one offers the truth and then his opinion. When I choose to debate someone on an issue, I look for two things. Intellectual Clarity and Moral Clarity. Agreement is last on my list. I forego it for clarity.

From the start, all I have been challenging is your “mis-characterizing” of 9500, decent law-abiding citizens who simply want our immigration laws enforced. But because of the contempt you have for them, you feel that you have to demonize them. So instead of judging them on their own actions and beliefs, you feel you have to prove that they are more like extreme radical groups. Comparing them to the KKK who has committed unspeakable acts against countless poor minorities is just pathetic. Bringing up the Sudanese genocide, Batista/Castro examples are simply more feeble attempts to say: “these people are just like these other people...” It really isn’t honest debate.

The reality of it is:

To this day, there has never been a violent incident initiated by a Minuteman volunteer. NOT ONE. MCDC has saved over 300 illegal border crossers near death in the desert. And yet, Minutemen get hundreds of death threats a year. MS 13 put a bounty on their heads. In the first 18 months of the MMP there were over 50 acts of violence brought against them.
What I criticize is your lack of confidence, in that, you feel you have to provide “proof” to validate your view. So instead of arguing with honest data, you feel you have to scoop the bottom of the Internet pond for scum and regurgitate it as though it were true.
The amount of underhanded and mis-reporting going on in the media and Internet today is unprecedented. Anyone who has witnessed a controversial event and later read about it, how it got reported, knows what I mean. So from the start you’re grasping at anything, anything that can make the Minutemen look bad. Instead of just having an honest opinion, you feel you have to create negatives to support it.

Ray Ybarra of the ACLU headed the team of observers who monitored the MMP project in 2005. He was imbedded with a dozen video cameras and witnessed everything in that month long kickoff. He put together a film that was publicized as showing the Minutemen and their abuses to the illegal aliens. I was at a special preview, prior to its New York release. Astonishingly, it did not show one example of any type of aggression or abuse in any form. During the question and answer period that followed, I asked Ray why there was no footage of the abuses it had advertised. He could not answer that, but insisted there were physical attacks and mentioned that he had been a victim of an attack himself. I kept pressing him by asking him if he was talking about the McCutchen incident. He replied: “yes.” I told him that I had interviewed the Cochise deputies, the Border Patrolmen, Joe McCutchen (who happens to be 72yrs old.) and two other eye witness’s. All of them told me you taped the whole incident and yet Cochise County said you filed no charges. The place got real quiet and suddenly in front of over 200 Hispanics and Open Border Advocates, Ray admitted that Joe did not really attack him like had been advertised.
Do you know how many glaring looks and verbal abuses I got as I left that building? And why, Jesse?
Because I wanted the truth.

This is what I’m talking about Jesse.

J. Christopher King

Jesse,
When someone cannot debate with reason and integrity, they resort to labeling and name-calling. This is one of YOUR MOST GLARING WEAKNESSES. Just look at some of the things you’ve said.

“…tell MCDC to shut up and let the smart people deal with this one…

…you fucking hillbilly you…

…your little brain…

….I am thinking about quitting my job as a stockbroker to go into law enforcement so I can move to your town and follow you around and ticket you everytime you roll through a stop sign, or fail to us a turn signal, or park too far from the curb, and call you an illegal for knowingly and willfully breaking the law, you machete weilding America hating illegal you….

….I don't know which learning disability you have….

…you creepy crew…

…tell Al Garza that if the deportation supporters get the final word in this debate that I hope he gets mistaken for a Guatamalen while out cutting his grass without his wallet…"

Jesse, these statements speak for your character. They tell us what kind of person you are. Quite frankly, Jesse, emotionally healthy people don’t talk this way. Do you think that anyone reading those statements would conclude that you are an educated and stable guy? Would anyone reading this kind of stuff say: “This guy must be a stockbroker?” Actually, Jesse, everyone who works at a brokerage firm is not a stockbroker….but, of course, they all say they are. Am I getting warm?

J. Christopher King

Jesse,
What I have offered on this thread is first hand experience, things I have personally witnessed. I have not given you any sources because I have not referred to anything that I’ve read or taken off the Internet. Reading your responses is like wading through a morass of juvenile invective. Your answer to me was: “Read a book.” Now this shouldn’t surprise me considering your lack of experience in the real world, but it really speaks for your maturity.

You said:

“…..I speak four languages and I don't have an accent in any of them (sure you don’t)

…….I am 27, and I've traveled far and wide

…….. I'm from an international family,

……..I have a B.S. in finance and a MBA

See how it works when one has little substance to defend one’s position? You simply start claiming how smart you are! How childish! Jesse, popping off and bragging about oneself is simply whitewash to cover low self-esteem.
Your reference to “my father” is just another example of the level of your development. It shows how you still think of your parents when you face difficult situations. Some day YOU will take care of your father, not the other way around.

Your nasty habit of telling people how they REALY think is a handicap that will not be easy for you to shake off. I have noticed that weakness in adversaries with years of experience. They also tend to subscribe to various conspiracy theories and live in a state of constant fear and mistrust. I hope you are able to overcome it.

So, you EXCELLED at the Oxford Style of debate? Isn’t that interesting. What puzzles me, is how in the world did you pick up all that “ sloppy street style” if you so EXCELLED at the Oxford Style of Debate. What am I talking about? Well, the rules of etiquette, my friend. Why don’t you go back and review them. (wait, you shouldn’t have to …..you EXCELLED at it) You see, “respect for your opponent” is mandatory if you want to participate in that genre. Your insults and derogatory remarks would have had you dismissed quite quickly. But, I’m sure you know that, after all, you EXCELLED at it, right Jesse?

I’m sorry son, but it’s just so amusing to me when someone with no real experience on an issue feels that their ignorance has some significance.

You’ve got some growing up to do, Junior. This is isn’t academia anymore; this is real life…..
....your way out of your league.

J Christopher King

Whatever J. Christopher King, I could go tit for tat with you on "stats" and "reports" all day, but I don't have the time nor desire. Like I said before, we'll just see what happens. Time will prove one of us wrong and one of us right, no use in talking about it, because you are pretty convinced you are right and I am ignorant, and I'm pretty sure I am right and you are ignorant, and we both have plenty of people who agree with us in our respective corners, nothing either one of us is going to say to the other is going to convince the other one iota, so it's a waste of time. Since Dwight D. Eisenhower initiated "Operation Wetback" in 1954, the U.S.A. has done such a GREAT job of securing the southern border and keeping out illegal immigrants, that I'm sure you guys will be SO successful too with your hard-line stance, that works SO well in the non academia "real world" that you live in. Later kiddo, see you in the funny papers. I'll keep checking back with the MCDC for the progress report on that "Israeli style fence". And just by the way, you having an illegal housekeeper isn't a "shade of gray". It just means you are a hypocrite.

Well Jesse, your finally settling down a bit.

Okay, I guess time will tell. The illegal aliens I talk to are all quite pleased with the way the laws are changing, the way local law enforcement are getting more lenient, the relaxation of border policies and of course the new bills from Congress that grant amnesty. Yeah, all these changes are realy making "living illegaly in the US" much easier. Gee, Jesse, I see your point now.

So I'm a hyocrite, eh? Yeah, I knew that habit would be a hard on to shake also. Well, I've got some news for you. You can't live and work in Arizona without interacting with illegal aliens. We have roughly 500,000 here. I have no doubt, that my oil change, my chile relleno dinner, my car wash, and my yard crew were all provided me by some illegal aliens. There's no escaping it in Arizona.

My maid and I speak only in Spanish. (but I have a funny little accent) She despises the women who come here only to have babies to get on the welfare dole. She hates the criminals who snuck in here and are preying on our society. She carries two auto insurance policies, files and pays taxes and does not collect food stamps or reduced lunches at school. She actually wants to contribute to our society, live the American Dream and become a citizen...not just suck our social services dry. Many of the illegals here are honest good working people. I am not opposed to them.

I am opposed to free-loaders.
I am opposed to criminals.
I am opposed to our government not enforcing our laws.

Illegal immigration is not rocket science - it's much more complicated than that.

J. Christopher King

I still think it is hypocritical. I in fact have news for you, to support an illegal alien in a round about way by patronizing a business who may have illegal aliens as part of their staff is one thing, but to be a member of the MCDC and have one working in your home who you pay directly is quite another. We got way off the point with the personal attacks there for awhile, but I stand by my original statement, that I think the MCDC is doesn't offer much in the way of viable solutions to our immigration situation. I truly beleive that they succeed mostly in fanning the flames of racial hatred that is simmering in our country. I think if the MCDC had their way, the solutions to the problem that they support (kick em' out, build a fence) will have some long term effects on our economy, and every single american in the country will feel it. Espcially the poor. What about the LEGAL U.S. citizens who are either on food stamps or can barely afford to feed themselves now, what happens to them when the commodities markets goes crazy and food prices go through the roof? Where's the plan for them? When would the MCDC like this mass deportation to start, before a harvest or after a harvest? How many countries rely on us to feed them, what happens if a crop sits on trees and in fields rotting because farmers have lost the labor supply that they had grown accustomed to? Let them starve for awhile? The Cuban missile crisis taught us that we need to keep our neighbors to the immediate north and south on our side, how can we build a cattle fence and treat their citizens (even though they are in our country illegally) like cockroaches and expect to keep up diplomatic relations? I just think a plan needs to be drafted BEFORE we do something with so many geo-political ramifications. Well J. Christopher King, got to get back to my job now. By the way you caught me, I am not a stockbroker, I just mop the floors at the brokerage firm here, how arrogant of me to think I could fool a Minuteman, as he would know better than anyone that someone who opposes his group surely must be an uneducated bumbling idiot who couldn't possibly have a good job. Shame on me.

Awww, Jesse, so you think WE got distracted with personal attacks? Yeah listen, why don’t you tell me which of these personal attacks came from ME on this thread.

"...you and your stooges...
...your Neo Nazis..…
...you creepy crew….
...you fucking hillbilly you..."

AND MY PERSONAL FAVORITE,

...you machete weilding America hating illegal you..."

Yeah, Jesse, those are some pretty pathetic personal attacks. But now I've got some news for you, THOSE ALL BELONG TO YOU. So the reality is: YOU’RE THE ONE that got a little sidetracked with the personal attacks.
My criticism of you has been justified and twofold. I think your immature and ignorant on this subject. Those are not “personal” attacks. It’s just how I perceive you from the way you argue. Calling people names in an argument is a sure sign of immaturity. In a debate, it’s a clear sign of frustration and therefore, a weakness.
My brother is immature. It’s a fact. It’s not a putdown, it’s not mean, it’s just accurate. He agrees. He’s also very emotionally stable.
I’m ignorant when it comes to complex math. I accept it. It doesn’t make me stupid. It just means I don’t know a lot about it – my interests lie elsewhere. If I attempted an argument with a mathematician, he would quickly discover that I am ignorant. It's not a personal attack, it’s just a fact.
I hope your following this.

Jesse, I know these two Democrats. And they simply can’t agree on how to handle heath care in America. They go at it like cats and dogs. And they’re both Democrats.
And I know these two Surgeons. And they argue endlessly on the best procedure for repairing a lateral hernia. And they’re both Surgeons.
And I know these three biologists, and they all have their own opinion on stem cell research. Everyone swears his method is the best. And yep, Jesse, they are all biologists.
What makes you think for a second that all Minutemen think exactly the same way? Your dependency on labeling and generalizing is small-minded. The inability to see distinction and subtle differences severely stunts ones ability to extrapolate life situations. For God’s sake, Jesse, stereotyping whole groups is the first sign of racist behavior!

The indescribable hell that illegal immigration has inflicted on the border communities is reason enough to want to stand guard and repel all illegal border crossers. Now I am going to give you a link and I would hope you would take the time to read this ladies description of what life is like for her family on the border. There are hundreds of Susies in Arizona alone and IT IS THE PRIME REASON I joined the MCDC. I don’t need any other motive than this one alone.
Please, Jesse, just read her letter. http://www.tucsonweekly.com/gbase/Currents/Content?oid=oid%3A75277

It does not surprise me that you think I’m a hypocrite. You don’t want to see me as I am. You don’t want to believe what I have told you about my views, beliefs or experiences. You just want to see me as YOU want. Because it’s much easier and convenient to simply believe that all Minutemen think the same. You know, like democrats, surgeons, biologists…etc.

J. Christopher King

I think you threw down the original gauntlet, as you dictated the whole tone of our argument with your original condescending response to my original post, you singled me out, not the other way around. I feel you've been clearly outclassed in this argument, and a lot of people who I've had read it agree with me, but you see it differently, "You know, like democrats, surgeons, biologists…etc."

You accused me before of not "reeely" paying attention or responding to you, yet you've not so deftly dodged my questions. I listed a link to the SPLC which lists your beloved organization as a extremist nativist group, your response was
"Oh, Jesse, the Southern Poverty Law Center??? I’m sorry. I am laughing again. Maybe you should spend some time on THEIR website and form some conclusions."
Talk about arguing with a teenager! You might as well as said, "um, like, whatever man" cause it's basically the same thing. You don't offer any reason why I should discredit them or their summation of your group.

I listed the name of an article that had the title "Cesar Chavez wannabes fret more about a law-abiding grandma than a gang of machete-wielding illegals." You said it showed my lack of understanding of the issue, and that it was a "cherry picked" quote. It's not cherry picked if it's the TITLE OF THE ARTICLE, screaming out after only one click of the mouse on the MCDC website, you try to make it seemed like I took an obscure part of a sentence from the article and used it out of context.

I listed the KKK mission statement to drive home the point that you can't take an organization at face value based on their mission statement alone, or because you maybe happen to agree with some common issues, and you totally failed to draw the connection.

You tried to "prove" that the minutemen don't attract racists by stating that "countless brown skinned members" laugh at my "dimwitted statements." (Yet they have to have the F.B.I help them screen their members. If I kept getting applications from National Alliance, Neo Natzi, and KKK members, I'd wonder about that) That's fine, your logic is that brown skinned people wouldn't support a group that is marching them to their destruction, surely that couldn't happen. When I gave the example of how the Cubans did exactly that, you once again failed to make the connection.

You totally sidestepped my question on how the MCDC would handle the devatstating effect to the econmy, most notably the commodities markets.

You constantly have invented your little rules for our conversation, but switch back and forth between weather this is a formal debate or a semi-friendly conversation. If it's a formal debate, why do you keep giving unverifiable personal accounts that don't amount to a hill of beans? You call it leading down a road called integrity, I call it posting any old drool off your chin. What if I listed some "experiences" of minutmen raping and beating immigrants to "prove" my point, or MCDC joining forces with the the National Alliance and the KKK? You would deny it's true, but you couldn't prove it wasn't, and I couldn't prove it was, so it's a waste of time. So apparently it's not a formal debate, though you keep making it out to be one. If it's just a conversation, why do you keep bitching about my style of speech? I'm a little mean, maybe even a lot mean, but you equate meanness with lack of intelligence, since when have the two been connected?

I am a little harsh in my treatment of you and your ilk, but two things you have to keep in mind: First and foremost I'm talking to a grown teenager, (a hypocritcal one at that, you never gave a good reason to justify your obvious hypocrisy) second I live in a country where the vice president tells Patrick Leahy "go fuck yourself" on the Senate floor. This is America in 2007. WAKE UP Chris!!! This is not Chuck E. Cheese, J. Christopher King, the time to put the big boy pants on has passed, if you can't take it quit posting your verbal diahrrea. You keep coming back for the punishment. Oh, and you just wasted your time telling me how "all Minutmen don't think alike" Aside from you I don't have any particular problem with any particular minuteman, I have a problem with the policies of that organization. People who target individuals rather than policies, why does that sound so familiar? Oh yeah, that's right, that's your group. Since we are sharing links, here's one for you.

http://www.minutemenunvarnished.com/minutesite/home.html

I read that letter and it was a waste of my time. You are preaching to choir. I have never said the border shouldn't be secured, or immigration laws shouldn't be enforced, I've stated for you a half dozen times I just want somebody to come up with a good plan. How many more times do I have to say it?

Another thing, me saying "...you machete weilding America hating illegal you..." was a satirical jab at the minutemen's almost universal beleif that it is okay to give undocumented workers the title of "lawbreakers" and "illegals" etc. I've read a thousand times that "those who knowingly and willfully enter the country illegally are CRIMINALS, and need to be treated as such." First they need to pause and realize that they are talking about human beings, second they should realize that if simply breaking a law is a green light for you to be labeled an illegal, then breaking any law will make anyone automatically an illegal, so when I said, "I am thinking about quitting my job as a stockbroker to go into law enforcement so I can move to your town and follow you around and ticket you everytime you roll through a stop sign, or fail to use a turn signal, or park too far from the curb, and call you an illegal for knowingly and willfully breaking the law, you machete weilding America hating illegal you", it was a jab at this nasty habit Americans have gotten into, and also a jab at that stupid ass article on your organization's website. You once again failed to make the connection, par for the course for you, and twisted it into something it wasn't. Second, me calling you a fucking hillbilly was a response to you "reeely listen" comment. You later tried to justify your comment, but I've read at least 50 articles where, when the author want's to mimmick a hispanic accent, will spell that word this way, such as "it reeeely eeees". Surely you would have known that oh great and knowledgable J. Christopher King, and been sure to steer clear of typing something that could make you look like such a racist. You expect me to beleive that out of all the times I've read that little joke, somehow that's not how YOU meant it, huh? You've been officialy delegated to the kids table in this debate, I'll see you at the adults table when you grow up and get your shit together. The MCDC plans to host their national convention in Kansas City Dec 1st of this year. There is some strong opposition here, (wonder why). If you guys do come, I'll be there. I'll look for you. There's not that many of you guys so you shouldn't be too hard to spot. I'll be the slightly chubby asian kid in the front taking notes and chomping on a big bag of chicharrones. Maybe we'll have a calmer conversation then.

Ahhhhh, Jesse, you are just so predictable.

So you think “ I “ threw down the original gauntlet with “my” original condescending response? Well? Actually, in the first post on this thread you made this statement:

“…TELL MCDC TO SHUT UP AND LET THE SMART PEOPLE DEAL WITH THIS ONE…”

Jesse, I think that is where the gauntlet fell……”originally.”
And then you said:

“…YOU SINGLED ME OUT…”

Honestly, son, you really amuse me. I was wondering how long it would take before the: “I’M A VICTIM” angle came out!! That is just so banal.

So you’ve had a lot of people read it? And they agree with you? You really outclassed me? Whoah! Dude! Was it when you called me a “fuckin’ hillbilly?” I mean, WAS THAT WHAT YOUR FRIENDS THOUGHT WAS BRILLIANT!! CLASSY?
Or was it when you wanted Al Garza to get mistaken for a illegal Guatamalen? Did your mother beam with pride over that one?

I got a little secret for you Jesse, smart, successful stockbrokers don’t leave their profession to become a cop to hassle people. That was one of your most dim-witted statements – but, oh, I’m sure your friends all jumped up and down with delight and said: “DO IT JESSE!! DO IT!!”

Oh, Jesse, just the fact that you’ve had several other people read this proves my earlier point:

YOU ARE SO INSECURE WITH YOURSELF THAT YOU NEED OTHER’S SUPPORT TO MAKE YOU FEEL WORTHWHILE.
YOU HAD TO GET OTHER PEOPLE’S APPROVAL THAT WHAT YOU WERE SAYING WAS RIGHT - OKAY.

That’s what children do. I’ve been telling you that from the start. You just keep proving that to me over and over. And now I am really bored with you. You believe nothing I say. Everything you don’t agree with must be a lie.
I’m looking for Intellectual and Moral Integrity. You are Intellectually Bankrupt.

My friend,

Life for you will be a constant challenge.

You are still a child, Jesse.

I listed the name of an article that had the title "Cesar Chavez wannabes fret more about a law-abiding grandma than a gang of machete-wielding illegals." You said it showed my lack of understanding of the issue, and that it was a "cherry picked" quote. It's not cherry picked if it's the TITLE OF THE ARTICLE, screaming out after only one click of the mouse on the MCDC website, you try to make it seemed like I took an obscure part of a sentence from the article and used it out of context.
I listed the KKK mission statement to drive home the point that you can't take an organization at face value based on their mission statement alone, or because you maybe happen to agree with some common issues, and you totally failed to draw the connection.

J. Christopher King, we are simply not going to agree.

YOU ARE SO INSECURE WITH YOURSELF THAT YOU NEED OTHER’S SUPPORT TO MAKE YOU FEEL WORTHWHILE.
YOU HAD TO GET OTHER PEOPLE’S APPROVAL THAT WHAT YOU WERE SAYING WAS RIGHT - OKAY.

As in this comment:Countless brown skinned members of MCDC laugh hysterically when they hear dim-witted statements like this.

Or this one:Funny you mentioned Al Garza. You must be psychic. Actually, he was one of them laughing at your statement. I did happen to talk to him today (I admit it - that’s how he knew about you, sorry man.)

You do remember saying this, right? What about this:

I’m looking for Intellectual and Moral Integrity. You are Intellectually Bankrupt.

Moral integrity as in joining a group that opposes any and all illegal aliens, and at the same time hiring an illegal alien? Hmmm.

My friends were't cheering those particular statements on, they were cheering on the fact that I consistently challenged the obvious problems that the MCDC have caused and will cause in the future, and your demonstration of an acute inability to address them with any type of cogent argument, that was plain to see. Besides, if you can't take a little heat stay out of the kitchen. Mommy, the big bad man called me a name, waah waaah, who's the child here exactly? Why couldn't you just take it in stride and address the issues? I never addressed it when you called me son and junior, obviously condescending and rude, why couldn't you? You can't defend your position so you just go about attacking the manner in which I present mine, that's how I see it. You of course see it a different way, and that's fine. Since you seem to LOVE playing make beleive physcologist here, let me say that consistently challenging weather or not I'm being honest about my profession reeks of jealousy and feelings of inferiority, so just drop that. We can keep insulting each other till we are blue in the face, but the fact remains that your fence is not built, deportation hasn't even started, and the country is no closer to expelling the undocumented workers now in 2007 then they were in 1954, so one of us is right and one of use is wrong, I wonder who? The facts speak for themselves.

Jesse,
You just keep making the same mistakes over and over. When I point out your insecurity (by having your friends read your argument,) you think the proper response is to try to show that I do it too - that I’m a hypocrite. As in this comment: Countless brown skinned members of MCDC laugh hysterically when they hear dim-witted statements like this. You so desperately want to believe that I showed this thread to someone for approval.
But the reality is, I said we laugh at statements “LIKE” this. Attempting to make this a race issue, is because there is no real honest defense. Playing the race card is always the last futile attempt by the small-minded. This is the most often used, outdated, ridiculous argument there is. It’s so silly that we can’t even take it serious anymore - that’s why we think it’s funny when it comes up. It just makes you look so weak.
And then you bring up my statement about Al Garza to make it look like I was whining to him about what you said, when the reality is that I called him to verify that Laine Lawless was not a Minuteman. He has all of our membership data and I check with him occasionally before I go shooting my mouth off. (Verifying my facts - a habit that you haven’t developed yet.) But see, that’s just one of the major differences between you and me. That’s a big part of our disconnect.
It’s just like the video site you sent me to. I lost patience waiting for those to download ( I don't know why it was so slow there,) but I'm not so sure those were all MCDC protestors. When I have time to watch them again I will look to verify what I'm saying here. But for now, there was no way of confirming if those were MCDC members, but that didn’t matter to you. That speaks for your lack of moral integrity. You know, just grouping them all together (black and white) - that’s how hate works. That’s how racism works. That’s how you work.

Then you condemn me with this statement:

"Moral integrity: as in joining a group that opposes any and all illegal aliens, and at the same time hiring an illegal alien? Hmmm."

I’ve already explained to you why I joined the Minutemen, (to help protect people like Susie), and I’ve explained to you the three things that I oppose relative to illegal immigration.
I will always strive to do what is right. Every situation is unique. But your world everything is black and white. Good or Bad. Right or Wrong. You can’t possible believe me. You can’t trust what I say. I am whatever you WANT to believe. You see the Intellectual bankruptcy?

(Hey I know, let me put it this way. I know a bunch of stockbrokers that are crooks. Let’s see, using your black and white logic….yeah! YOU MUST BE A CROOK TOO!!!)

Oh, my Jesse, I could care less if you call me names. I have not protested that. All I have pointed out is that, that is childlike behavior. It speaks for your emotional level. I’m sorry, Jesse, but it really does. You don’t need initials behind your last name to figure that one out. I don’t take names personally, because years ago I incorporated this life rule:

“”What you think of me……is none of my business.”

Oh so I “consistently” challenge you about your profession? See how you have to exaggerate and embellish? I teased you once about it. ONCE, JESSE!! But in your mind I CONSISTENTLY CHALLENGED you about it. Oh Jesse, do you see how easy you make this for me?

You see, there’s something in my business that we call “transference.” It’s when you have an “inner character flaw” that you are just powerless to conquer. Your inability to deal with it becomes so frustrating and debilitating that you suppress it and bury it, subconsciously. Then out of frustration you apply (transfer) it to you’re outside world to release some of the pressure. You inappropriately apply it to external people, places and things. This is relative to that “Life will be a constant challenge for you” statement I made earlier. You show me a pattern of accusing people of what you are most guilty of. I see it all the time.

Your statement: “the obvious problems the MCDC has caused.”
Yeah, when Chris Simcox reported seeing drug smugglers with assault weapons in the Arizona desert, it was a real problem for the Border Patrol. They told him there was nothing they could do about it. He couldn’t believe it.

So he wrote his congressmen and senators about it. They told him the same thing: “not much we can do about it.” Yeah, it was a real problem for them.

So he bought a newspaper outlet and started writing “first-hand” experiences about what he saw in the desert of southern Arizona. It became quite a problem for the public, who previously had no idea how extreme illegal immigration really was.

Then, when his good friend, Jim Eggle was murdered by drug smugglers entering the US through Arizona, he really caused a lot of trouble by going to Washington and demanding something be done about protecting our citizens along our southern border.

Then when all of our government agencies just threw up it’s arms and said: “Sorry, there’s nothing we can do about it.” That’s when he decided to “get up off the couch” and do something about it himself. Ergo: Minuteman Civil Defense Corp

So, Jesse, I do understand what you’re talking about when you say: “the obvious trouble MCDC has caused…”
I just feel so enlightened now.
J. Christopher King

PS: Oh, by the way, Jesse, your insistence that my statement: “Now I want you to reeeeely focus for a minute.” is a poke at a Spanish accent, once again, speaks for your insecurity. See how you are unable to take anything I say at face value? Your always thinking: "What does Chris reeely mean by that? Oh no, it always has to be exaggerated and distorted to fit your black and white world. It has to be sinister.
You see, when I want to poke fun at a Spanish accent, I do it like this:

“How do you say sister in Spanish?” answer: “Hermana.’
Retort: “No, it’s Seeeeeester!.”

OH MY GOD JESSE!!!
NOW J. CHISTOPHER KING HAS DONE IT!!
THERE’S YOUR PROOF!!!
I KNEW IT ALL ALONG!!
HE‘S A @$#%$& RACIST!!!

J. Christopher King, if this was a boxing match, they would write about it in the paper the next day like this:

"J. Christopher King was done in at the end of the fight with a barrage of logic, verifiable references, easy to follow (except for him) analogies, and a wee bit of venom. The fight was called when J. Christopher King could no longer mount a defense, and his offense went terribly awry when he had could only muster a few pathetic jabs that met only air. Experts say J. Christopher King was in over his head, clearly outmatched, should never have gotten into the fight to begin with, and should consider retiring"

I'm sure you feel the same way about me. My question is if I'm such a child why do you keep arguing with me? Do you always argue with children?

J. Christopher King just face it, we are very alike with different views. We both consider the other an idiot and a dimwit, yet we can't keep posting venom at each other? Why is this? If we truly felt superior to the other, or having a superior intelligence at least, why would either one of us bother? Would either one of us go into a home for the mentally disabled and flaunt our "intelligence"? No, so let's just drop this whole debate. Obviously neither one of us did a good job convincing the other, and we both beleive that it's the other person's fault that he/she didn't get convinced. This was a waste of time and I'm sorry I ever replied to you. You accuse me of being too young and inexperienced, I think this modern world has left you far behind and out of touch with the world today, who's right? Who cares? Nothing we say here is adds up to a hill of beans, so I'm going to be the bigger man here (once again) and just stop posting. Since we are trading race jokes, here's one for you.

Q:What's white and 8 inches long?
A:Nothing.

Race has not been my ace card in this debate, though I definately beleive the policies the MCDC support just starts an open season on racial profiling. My ace card has been the lack of a solid plan for the geo political effects of what the MCDC proposes, I was hoping you'd have some kind of answer to these questions, but instead you kept trying to tell me what's wrong with me. I'm guilty of that too, don't start.

In conclusion J. Christopher King, have a nice life, or not, either way I have to get back to work now. I'll just come find you at the convention, we'll talk then. These floors aren't going to mop themselves.

Hey Jesse,

Hey, I really liked the boxing analogy – at least I’m not a quitter!! Yeeehaaw!

So, to answer your question, I occasionally argue with children because……………………
…………..…….that’s how they learn.

I think the only thing we have in common is stubbornness.

I liked your closing statement about mopping the floors too! That brought a smile to my face. It also pointed out another area where we differ:
I never think anyone is lying to me, until they give me a reason.
You, on the other hand, think everyone with a different view than yours, is a liar.

So you’re going to be a big guy and quit posting, eh? That’s cool. I respect that. But bringin’ up dick size in that joke? Well?……. somehow that just didn’t make a lotta sense to me…..you know…. a young, chubby Asian wanting to talk about dick sizes. Hmmmm?

Okay, seriously, so you have no expectations…..I won’t be at the Minuteman Conference in KC. I’ll be down at the border being more useful, protecting all the Susies.

Anyone who has children knows that you can “love the child but condemn their behavior.” That’s an important concept to keep in mind when raising youngsters. I happen to believe it’s also a good notion to remember when it comes to illegal aliens.
I went to the Immigrants Rights Rally in Arizona in May. Many of them recognized me as a Minuteman. That didn’t stop me; I stubbornly marched right through their ranks with “my own sign”. It all got caught on tape. Turn your sound up.

http://www.youtube.com/user/RUMSQUADDLE

Que tenga un buen vida, mijo.

You too Chris, nice knowing you. Be careful down there on the border. By the way, only the first few inches of my penis are asian. The rest are all latin, and the all the Jewish girls go meshugas over my shmetina. Later.

Omigod, shut up already. Really, for the love of America, can you not see how ridiculous you're beginning to sound? There is no such thing as an illegal immigrant. You are either a legal immigrant, or an illegal alien. The Minutemen came into existence because our Federal Government is either unwilling or incapable of protecting our Southern border. I think there's an unspoken political agenda behind it all. Regardless, the bottomline should be "get legal, and do it through legal channels", not "oh hey, it's okay cos we share a southern border". The race card has nothing to do with any of this, but the press will shove it down our throats and give all this the appearance of being a racist issue. It's an issue of sovereignty. In America, the power lies ultimately with the People. If our governments fail us, it's up to us to do the job. This is a basic tenet of our Constitution, a great document indeed.

Allowing La Raza to dictate who we here in KC can or cannot elect or appoint to public office will set a bad precedent from which we may never recover. The NAACP threw in with La Raza for their own political reasons. Poverty and lack of legitimate political process in Mexico or any other country shouldn't automatically equate to an open door here in America. This debate is way off-track, and the point is getting lost in all these special interests. Welcome to America. Learn to speak English, obtain your citizenship through legal means, and begin paying into our tax system. If you are not a citizen, you are entitled to nothing.